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23 November 2003 @ 08:38 pm
peep  
Watched the first hour of "Pump Up the Volume" tonight. Still an amazing movie, I think, and not as dated as it should be. Lots of stuff to cry about in the first 60 minutes. It captures teenage angst--the agony and the dorkiness--so well. Love the bit when they cut from shot to shot of kids dancing in their rooms, and the bit where that one kid recounts his gay experience, and just the bone-deep absolute misery of the *other* kid as he talks to HHH, saying how alone he is, just before he kills himself.

Also, Seth Green has a tiny bit in the movie. If you get a chance, take a look at him. Because, dude. If he'd been the *true* age for his role when they cast him as a high school kid in BtVS, *that's* what he'd have looked like. Scary. Seriously. He's got a little seedlet of cuteness that will one day sprout into Oz, but he's also an utter dork.

Was thinking just now of how I see cool stuff in stories or movies and make mental notes to myself to use it someday, but I rarely jot it down. Like at the end of "Enemy of the State," Will Smith's character does this thing where he sets up a meeting between the Mafia and the NSA and orchestrates it to create a critical miscommunication--perfect strategizing. Or, in "Everwood" tonight, which I watched for the first time, there was this bit where the doc tries to help the nice stuttering boy and it made me think of the BtVS scene where Xander uses Willow to practice asking Buffy on a date and you'd have that whole triangular subtext going on, and you could twist it for fun and have someone else overhear just enough of the conversation to assume there's a relationship going on there.

Basically, plot tricks--elementary in some cases, cliched in other (you'd have to find a new twist), and occasionally just very neat. I want a big book of plot tricks and themes and tropes that I can browse through.

Clones, even. Clones are fun. Or variations on that--twins, robots, magically disguised substitutes, etc--where someone is removed and another person takes their place, and you've got all this double-play going on where your characters don't know what the audience knows. I want to play with clones.

I was disappointed with "Everwood." Sorry, fans. I came in on that scene mentioned above and briefly got interested by the possibility that they might actually play through a whole scripted, romantic dialogue between the gruff old doctor and the young hottie. But no. And then I got pissy, and my thoughts derailed and I dwelled on how fed up I am with most network TV, because Jesus fucking Christ, it's just so unrelentingly heterosexual it makes me want to kick puppies. So this was the frame of mind in which I watched the rest of the episode and as you can imagine, it only made me crankier. It was *all* centered on budding romances, and it was tedious. Also, I wasn't impressed by the writing. Not sure what the attraction is about the show, except the eye candy. But seriously: strip away genre and what do you have left? A hundred shows just like this. Slices of very ordinary life, as seen through the mainstream eyes of Hollywood. I just. Don't. Care.

Where's my fucking ten percent? Where's the queer? I want the scruffy doctor to harbor a secret, inappropriate crush on a pretty young guy and for the subtext to be amped up to 11 as they trade romantic lines, and then the boy gets all confused and blushes and leaves, and the doc swipes a hand down his face and feels like a monster, but in the end, as with Brian and Justin, Ben and Michael, true, sweet love will prevail.

Someone--someone on my friends list whose identity I don't remember right now, but undoubtedly a lovely person, I should preface by saying--someone wrote the other day, via the latest meme, the unpopular opinion that slash was no longer transgressive, and that in fact writing het was just as transgressive if not *more* so because of the prevailing slash climate. And you know what? There's a *reason* that's gonna be an unpopular opinion, because it's on *crack*. My TV shows me men and women smiling goopily at each other, playing each other love songs and scheming for romance. The other day I watched a cable montage with, I don't know, *seventeen* movie shots of people kissing as red roses tumbled over the screen. I'll just let you guess how many of those kisses were between men and women. Yes.

Wow, I'm working myself into a pisser. I started out so fresh and perky, I swear! *g* Ironically, I've been writing Spike/Buffy noir all day and am all kick-ass excited about it. Hee. I'm so transgressive.
 
 
 
do you want orcs? because this is how you get orcs: Down on Ship base by Mousekita0610 on November 23rd, 2003 08:47 pm (UTC)
Someone wrote the other day, via the latest meme, the unpopular opinion that slash was no longer transgressive, and that in fact writing het was just as transgressive if not *more* so because of the prevailing slash climate. And you know what? There's a *reason* that's gonna be an unpopular opinion, because it's on *crack*.

*****

LOL. Yes, but on THEIR home planet, I'm sure it made sense! The Planet Of Gay. Can I go there? I'll buy you that damned puppy if you get me a ticket.
vi, miss vylit if you're nastyvylit on November 23rd, 2003 08:56 pm (UTC)
Where's my fucking ten percent? Where's the queer? I want the scruffy doctor to harbor a secret, inappropriate crush on a pretty young guy and for the subtext to be amped up to 11 as they trade romantic lines

My problem exactly. People are talking about all the GAY on television, and there really isn't that much of it. Queer Eye, Queer as Folk, and Six Feet Under all of gay characters, but then there is Will & Grace - a show about a gay man who never actually does anything but talk about being gay. WB has a line up of shows that give us lovely subtext, but TV is rampantly heterosexual and that hasn't changed all that much.

the unpopular opinion that slash was no longer transgressive, and that in fact writing het was just as transgressive if not *more* so because of the prevailing slash climate

I think they need to share their magical crack. I'd like some.
Brassy Hag: spikemiggy on November 23rd, 2003 09:11 pm (UTC)
I commented in thebratqueen's journal about Will & Grace, and how Friends has actually had as many male/male kisses as it has (plus two very passionate female/female kisses that spring to mind, as well as a full-fledged lesbian wedding and that couple being very much in physical love). Furthermore, the "het show" has more physical affection and contact between men than the show people point to as a sign of THE GAY being everywhere on our televisions.

It's not complained about on Friends, though, because... why? They don't try to sell the HoYay! on their show? They hide it away as a secondary event on their show, and so the het people in charge don't feel as if they're being forced to look at all those icky gay people?

If these people really cared about het being overtaken by slash, they'd complain more about Friends than Will & Grace. The former actually walks the walk with a married homosexual couple raising a son, men who like taking naps snuggled up to each other, and male roomies that have been mistaken for lovers more than once and embrace so much that one episode had a musical montage of many of those moments. Instead, they point to the show that actually dares come out and say, "Hey, we've got gay people in main roles and we talk about being gay" while not doing much in the way of letting people of the same sex actually touch each other. Neither of these shows is anywhere near being chock full o' gay, and it'd be absurd to say they match up to QaF, but I do find it very interesting that no one has any problems with the show that, so to speak, keeps its head down and marches in step with what society wants.

Long story short (too late, yes yes), I would also like some of the crack this guy is on.
(no subject) - eliade on November 23rd, 2003 09:48 pm (UTC) (Expand)
(no subject) - miggy on November 23rd, 2003 09:58 pm (UTC) (Expand)
(no subject) - thebratqueen on November 24th, 2003 08:56 am (UTC) (Expand)
the basketcase: boy touchingdammitcarl on November 23rd, 2003 09:03 pm (UTC)
actually, everwood already did their straight-man-harbours-a-secret. (and, if i'm guessing correctly, the o.c. is following the same path.) gotta get the requisite gay out of the way, so no one will think anything of harold abbott with his sweatervests and his musical theatre.
Anna S.: angel_oz_gayeliade on November 23rd, 2003 09:06 pm (UTC)
With guest stars, I'm guessing...? *g* Always with the guest stars. But I should note that I'm aware I'm being a bit knee-jerk about the show, based on a single episode. And I was going to invite people to tell me why I should be watching it, but in the furor I was distracted and forgot. The O.C. now--I've seen enough of that show for me to laugh and say no freaking way.
(no subject) - dammitcarl on November 23rd, 2003 10:22 pm (UTC) (Expand)
Barb: numfarrahirah on November 23rd, 2003 09:10 pm (UTC)
Dude! I didn't say slash wasn't transgressive, or het was more transgressive than slash. I said that for me, Angel and Spike boinking was not transgressive, and Buffy and Spike boinking was. That's because of the specific circumstances of the characters and the way vampires, slayers, demons and gender are coded in BtVS. Or at least, that was what I was trying to say. Of course, I didn't say it in a meme, so maybe the lovely person was someone else entirely. In which case, never mind. Though I do think that even in non-genre shows it would be possible to write a specific het relationship as more transgressive than a specific gay relationship.



Anna S.eliade on November 23rd, 2003 09:16 pm (UTC)
Er--it wasn't you. You didn't say anything like that as I recall. I mean, I went and looked, and you made the comment about not dividing along slash/het lines, and that makes sense to me too. And I actually agree that there's a subversive and even a slashy feel to Spike/Buffy. (Why else would I love it? *g*)

Though I do think that even in non-genre shows it would be possible to write a specific het relationship as more transgressive than a specific gay relationship.

Completely. I've seen utterly boring portrayals of gay relationships, and would put, again, S/B over many of them.

I said that for me, Angel and Spike boinking was not transgressive, and Buffy and Spike boinking was.

I'm not even sure I saw you say this--if it was in a review of the latest Angel ep, I wouldn't hvae seen it. I still haven't watched it yet. I need to get on that....
(no subject) - rahirah on November 23rd, 2003 09:24 pm (UTC) (Expand)
(no subject) - eliade on November 23rd, 2003 09:28 pm (UTC) (Expand)
(no subject) - rahirah on November 23rd, 2003 09:30 pm (UTC) (Expand)
(no subject) - eliade on November 23rd, 2003 09:33 pm (UTC) (Expand)
(no subject) - rubywisp on November 23rd, 2003 10:25 pm (UTC) (Expand)
(no subject) - copracat on November 24th, 2003 12:31 am (UTC) (Expand)
(no subject) - rubywisp on November 24th, 2003 06:16 am (UTC) (Expand)
Mintwitchmintwitch on November 23rd, 2003 09:11 pm (UTC)
I have nothing of value to add, I just wanted to love on you a little.

::love::
Anna S.: spike_lovedeliade on November 23rd, 2003 10:32 pm (UTC)
Oh, this seems an appropriate comment on which to break out my new icon.

(*loves back on you*)
(no subject) - mintwitch on November 23rd, 2003 10:50 pm (UTC) (Expand)
witlingwitling on November 23rd, 2003 09:13 pm (UTC)
Wordy word word word word word. Also, testify.

Every so often I'll notice heterosexism, and it'll depress the hell out of me. And then I'll creep sullenly back into my hermit crab shell and continue to make up my own little world using shadow puppetry and a bare light bulb, and after a while I feel sane again. That's the secret, I find. This world is a scary place.

...in the end, as with Brian and Justin, Ben and Michael, true, sweet love will prevail.

You forgot 'Spike and Xander.'

Anna S.: spike_lovedeliade on November 23rd, 2003 10:36 pm (UTC)
And then I'll creep sullenly back into my hermit crab shell and continue to make up my own little world using shadow puppetry and a bare light bulb, and after a while I feel sane again.

Darn it, you are cute. I must cuddle you. I must!

You forgot 'Spike and Xander.'

D'oh! :>D I keep thinking of the shmoopy joy of the larvaverse (pause as we all contemplate that sentence) and of how happy it makes me just to have visions like this of men loving and taking care of each other in that manly way. Grunts and avoidance covering for sweetness. It reminds me of what I loved about The Sentinel fandom. Just this hard-to-describe quality of masculinity with a marshmallow center.
(no subject) - lumenara on November 24th, 2003 03:40 am (UTC) (Expand)
(Deleted comment)
PROBE UNIVERSEliviapenn on November 23rd, 2003 10:20 pm (UTC)

Well, the old reason was "not enough interesting female characters," or the existing ones being cliches-- but now you get people calling bullshit on you because of shows like Buffy.

The way I see it is, there's still not *quite* enough female characters, they're still somewhat cliched, and even when you do have a strong female character, 99% of the time she has a strong emotional tie to a man in the cast. Whereas the men have strong canonical (and subtextually homoerotic) emotional ties *to each other*.

It's like... on Smallville. Chloe and Lana are defined by their relationship to Clark. Are Pete and Lex defined by their relationship to women? No, they're *also* defined by their relationship to Clark.

Show me a strong f/f relationship in canon and it's probably got some femslash there-- but too often? The f/f stuff just isn't there to start with.
Also... - thete1 on November 23rd, 2003 10:27 pm (UTC) (Expand)
(no subject) - eliade on November 23rd, 2003 10:28 pm (UTC) (Expand)
(no subject) - carodee on November 24th, 2003 04:47 am (UTC) (Expand)
(no subject) - liviapenn on November 24th, 2003 10:12 am (UTC) (Expand)
(no subject) - rliz on December 5th, 2003 12:57 pm (UTC) (Expand)
f/f recs - mgs on November 24th, 2003 08:19 pm (UTC) (Expand)
(no subject) - eliade on November 23rd, 2003 10:26 pm (UTC) (Expand)
(no subject) - mintwitch on November 23rd, 2003 11:04 pm (UTC) (Expand)
(no subject) - eliade on November 23rd, 2003 11:33 pm (UTC) (Expand)
I Blame the Dutchmpoetess on November 23rd, 2003 10:40 pm (UTC)
I think part of the reason you'll hear "slash is no longer transgressive" or "I don't write slash to be transgressive" even from slashers -- even from slashers who probably still believe it is and still write at peast partially because ofthat -- is the feeling that we have to head certain anti-slash types off at the pass. We've heard "Oh, you slashers think you're so hip and cool and genderqueer; you're so full of it, get over yourselves" for so long, that if we want to be taken seriously in terms of our stories, we say "Fine, whatever, we are over ourselves. I'm not writing this to be different, I'm writing it because it turns me on/to explore the characters/etc.

Some of that is true, and hell, I mostly write slash because it hits my emotional kinks, vs. because I'm *trying* to stick it to the Man. But I think a big part of the denial of slash being transgressive or controversial, when said by slashers, is that self-defense instinct.
Anna S.: boys_are_prettyeliade on November 23rd, 2003 10:56 pm (UTC)
Yeah, I can see that. And actually I think there's this whole tension between acknowledging the "deviant" nature of slash (especially when you displace yourself a bit, and take the point of view of the average non-fan) and having to realize that we're often trying to normalize the relationships we write about. As Barb pointed out above, sometimes het *is* more subversive than slash, because a certain het relationship might destablize our expectations, whereas a gay one could be portrayed in a mundane, non-threatening way.

The idea I find silly is that slash is so dominant now in fandom that we've neatly flipped norms, so that het is the dangerous genre that will get you socially ostracized. Because, no. It's very possible that fans may have a kind of default place in fandom, and then look up one day to realize that the landscape has changed and slash has grown up more densely around them--and that could be disconcerting. But that's a case of not being able to see the forest for the trees. That's when, too, you have to go look at the source material and realize how the vast majority of it is created on the het pattern. I made that list once, of the canonical gay characters vs. the innumerable shows and movies and so on that are completely devoid of the queer factor, of a *single* explicitly gay or bi character. *That's* what we have to work with.

But you know what I mean. :)
(no subject) - mpoetess on November 23rd, 2003 11:10 pm (UTC) (Expand)
(no subject) - mintwitch on November 23rd, 2003 11:25 pm (UTC) (Expand)
(no subject) - eliade on November 23rd, 2003 11:31 pm (UTC) (Expand)
(no subject) - mintwitch on November 23rd, 2003 11:37 pm (UTC) (Expand)
(no subject) - eliade on November 23rd, 2003 11:40 pm (UTC) (Expand)
(no subject) - mintwitch on November 23rd, 2003 11:46 pm (UTC) (Expand)
(no subject) - eliade on November 23rd, 2003 11:39 pm (UTC) (Expand)
(no subject) - mintwitch on November 23rd, 2003 11:45 pm (UTC) (Expand)
(no subject) - copracat on November 24th, 2003 01:21 am (UTC) (Expand)
(no subject) - mintwitch on November 24th, 2003 01:55 am (UTC) (Expand)
(no subject) - jack_pride on November 24th, 2003 05:55 am (UTC) (Expand)
(no subject) - mintwitch on November 24th, 2003 07:30 am (UTC) (Expand)
(no subject) - herself_nyc on November 24th, 2003 07:32 am (UTC) (Expand)
(no subject) - jack_pride on November 24th, 2003 08:09 am (UTC) (Expand)
(no subject) - copracat on November 24th, 2003 08:00 am (UTC) (Expand)
(no subject) - mintwitch on November 24th, 2003 09:22 am (UTC) (Expand)
KLDkenyacandoit on November 23rd, 2003 11:00 pm (UTC)
Ooo, don't play with clones. Clones are creepy. And it's really weird how they all fit in that one tiny car.
(Anonymous) on November 24th, 2003 07:11 am (UTC)
Noir
Hey, I think everyone missed the big thing! The important thing! More Noir! Yeah!
laurashapiro on November 24th, 2003 08:32 am (UTC)
A Day Late and a Dollar Short
I can see how a person would get the idea that there's a "prevailing slash climate" in fandom -- I don't even think that person would have to live on another planet to believe it.

Fandom is this vast venn diagram where all the little sub-communities (some based on shows, some based on kinks, some based on medium -- vid/fic/art/whatever) are the overlapping bubbles. And depending on which bubbles you spend most of your time in, you could totally get the idea that there's a "prevailing slash climate"

Once I dipped my toe into slash and starting hang out with slashers, the wonderful brainy women I met back in XF and still hang with, that was certainly the way I felt. I was still only writing MSR, but I was reading this nifty slash stuff that all my friends were writing. Maybe it's because I never had that many het fan friends to begin with, but I found myself wrapped cozily up in a slash-dominant world.

And even though I've made new friends and floated off into a lot of other sub-community bubbles, I'm still in a slash-dominant world. That is, my perception of fandom is necessarily colored by my experience of the bubbles I hang out in, and I'd say all but one of them are slashcentric.

I have sometimes felt sad to realize that some of my closest friends wouldn't read my fiction, or wouldn't watch my vids, because they lacked slash content (although this attitude seems less pronounced in the vidding circles I inhabit). But I've never felt any sort of anti-het discrimination, nor have I in any way felt transgressive for writing het.

Of course, it's impossible to forget the larger context -- there are a bazillion fandom bubbles out there that are totally het-centric, and probably lots more people in those bubbles. And then of course the larger larger context, of the obsessively, depressingly, het-centric world. As a queer person I can never forget those contexts, but I can see how, say, a straight person might.

::shrug::
Laura B: jus1blaurosen on November 24th, 2003 08:36 am (UTC)
Project Plot Themes
I want a big book of plot tricks and themes and tropes that I can browse through.

Don't you think with the amount of authors on LJ that we could come up with our own anthology quite easily? Might be fun.
Strange Rambling Writer Chick: Stop Kitty Porn (hentaijess)debxena on November 24th, 2003 12:03 pm (UTC)
Pump Up the Volume
What timing! My PUtV video arrived yesterday (I've been hunting for my own copy for ages). Love the film, but never realised Seth Green was in it, so now I have yet anothe reason for loving it.

I'm staying right away from the kerfuffling ...